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Belligerents

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As the previous RfC highlighted; infoboxes are designed for quick fact-checking. Thus, the inclusion of the belligerents itself bear the same exact issue by violating MOS:INFOBOX: keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article. This issue centers around: the Knights Hospitaller, Principality of Muzaka, and Jonima Family, which all has considerably low scholarly consensus, as reflected in the article's lack of overall coverage on their involvement.

The belligerents' inclusion to the infobox stemmed from the incorporation of their leader, a decision which the latest RfC demonstrated to be a mistake. Edit history shows that neither the inclusions of the belligerents nor their leaders were backed by overall RS/consensus among editors. Additionally, conflicting information from RS adds to their lack of credibility: Lazar sought aid from his neighbors Tvtrko and Vuk Brankovic. Trtvko sendt a large contigent under the command of Vlatko Vukovic. Vuk Brankovic came himself, leading his own men. Thus the Serbian army was composed of three contingents under these three leaders, none of whom was then a Turkish vassal. (John V. A. Fine, p. 409). I trust that the previous RfC provided valuable insights into relevant guidelines for all involved editors, with the hope of preventing yet another RfC about the article's infobox. --Azor (talk). 21:05, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The RfC was about the commanders section, not the belligerents section. You can file a discussion at RfC about changes to the current version.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:10, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 April 2024

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There is no source or evidence that Principality of Muzaka and Jonima Family participated in the Battle. Nikolaass31 (talk) 19:45, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, @Nikolaass31. That statement is not entirely accurate. The article does include sources that mention member(s) of the Muzaka and Jonima families participating. However, these sources constitute only a small portion of the overall reliable sources cited in the article. It is therefore understandable that you question their verifiability. Whether that is enough to have them removed from the infobox is up for debate. --Azor (talk). 20:17, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You make it appear that there’s sources disputing the presence of all Albanian lords, which are - surprisingly - nonexistent.
It is therefore understandable that you question their verifiability is not what he said, and you know that. Maleschreiber said everything that needs to be said. The request for change will naturally be overruled because #1, the request itself is a false statement; #2, sources haven’t been presented but rather disregarded; #3, the request is vaguely formulated.
Hope that helps. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:48, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The request for change is denied as no objections or further statements have been heard from participating users. Even if further arguments are made, those ought to be reviewed in an RFC, as it has been done in previous instances. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The historians

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The "inconclusive" part's sources are all christian european borned historians'.The best Ottoman historian, Halil İnalcık says its a pirus win of Ottomans just because the after events. Also, the killed in action is not true, it is assasination by Milos Obilic in most of the sources. Also, Prince Jacob(Shahzade Yakup, the Çelebi) choked because of the new reign and risk of the civil war. Furkanberk52 (talk) 11:57, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfC Should Jonima family and Principality of Muzaka be included in the infobox?

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Jonima family and Principality of Muzaka are listed in the infobox section "Belligerents". Should they continue to stay there?

  1. Keep both
  2. Keep X, exclude Y
  3. Exclude both.

--Azor (talk). 19:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

3. Exclude both.The inclusion of "Jonima family" and "Principality of Muzaka" in the infobox raise several issues.

1. Limited presentation

All sources in the article consistently identify Moravian Serbia (under Lazar), supported by the District of Branković (Vuk Branković) and the Kingdom of Bosnia (Vlatko Vuković, sent by King Tvrtko) as the primary belligerents. Most of the sources focus solely on these belligerents, as evident in the following examples

  • "Lazar commanded the Serbs (p.409). The Bosnians fought as well, as did Vuk Brankovic. At the end of the battle, (..) the remnants of the Serbian (Lazar and Brankovic) and Bosnian (Vukovic) troops withdrew. (p.410) Thus the Serbian army was composed of three contingents under these leaders. (p.409)"[1]
  • "On 28 June 1389 the combined Serbian forces from the territories governed by Prince Lazar and Vuk Brankovic together with auxiliary troops sent by King Tvrtko of Bosnia faced Sultan Murad and his army on the field of Kosovo"[2]
  • "Upon recieving news of his [Murad's] approach, Prince Lazar, Vuk Brankovic, on whose land the battle was fought, and King Tvrtko, who sent a large unit under the command of Vlatko Vukovic, joined forces."[3]

These sources do not mention any other belligerents or possible ethnic groups in Lazar's army. Additional examples can be provided if necessary during the RfC.

2. Doubts Regarding Credibility and Verification

  • In this source[4], using non-Ottoman primary sources (see the Comment below), the author Malcolm is theorizing about other ethnic groups in Lazar's army; Albanians: "An early-sixteenth-century family history of an Albanian noble family, the Muzaka (or 'Musachi'), records that Teodor Muzaka brought 'a large band of Albanians' to join Lazar's army, together with ‘other Albanian lords’, and that he was killed in the battle. Many of the other details in this memoir are verifiably accurate, so this claim may well be trustworthy too " and Hungarians; "The participation of Hungarians seems especially likely, given that Lazar had long had close relations with his northern neighbours and had married one of his daughters to a Hungarian nobleman." While the author provides some information about the involvement of Albanians and Hungarians in Lazar's army, there is uncertainty and speculation surrounding their participation. For instance, the claim that Teodor Muzaka brought a large band of Albanians to join Lazar's army lacks verifiability, as stated by the author himself. Additionally, the source fails to inform the reader whether the principality itself participated in the war or if the Albanians originated from Muzaka's domain. As a result, selectively identifying specific belligerents from this information would constitute original research. The author presecedes to end the paragraph with "But the main components of his [Lazar] force were probably his own men, Vuk Brankovic's, and those of the Bosnian general, Vlatko Vukovic.".

3. Breaches of infobox guidelines

The inclusion of the two Albanian belligerents in the infobox lacks necessary context, scholarly consensus, credibility, and affirmation. While the author Malcolm speculates about Muzaka's participation, there is insufficient evidence to support the claim that the entire principality participated. Furthermore, none other belligerents, except those of Lazar, Branković, and Vuković, provide concrete information about their actual involvement in the battle or the aftermath of their participation. The inclusion of Jonima family and the Principality of Muzaka in the infobox is clearly original research and does not enhance understanding and raises more questions than answers for the readers of the article. Overall, this breaches the infobox military conflict guidelines:

  • Information in the infobox should not be "controversial". Refer the reader to an appropriate section in the article or leave the parameter blank rather than make an unsubstantiated or doubtful claim
  • (..) in smaller ones [belligerents] (such as particular units, formations, or groups) may be indicated if doing so improves reader understanding.


Comment: Several sources referenced in this article draw from Ottoman primary sources. However, scholars like Malcolm and John Fine within this work have raised doubts about the reliability of such sources:

  • Malcolm[4]: "The earliest Ottoman accounts, written in the fifteenth century, do refer to Albanians in Lazar's army; they also list many other ethnic components. One refers to mercenaries from Serbia, Albania, Bosnia and Hungary; another adds to that list soldiers from Wallachia, and Bulgarians, Czechs and 'Franks'" "But on the other hand the Ottoman writers were evidently eager to build up the size and significance of Lazar's army, which they described as vastly outnumbering Murat's, in order to add to the glory of the Turkish victory. (..)  Albanian history books claim that Balsha also took part and this is almost certainly false. The only basis for this claim is the account of the early Ottoman historian Nesri (..) These Ottoman claims are not to be trusted." John Fine[1]: "This account by Mehmed Nesri, however, would become the major resource for subsequent descriptions of the battle, not only in the Ottoman world but in Western Europe as well. (..) He clearly intended to describe a significant Ottoman victory at Kosovo and thus exaggerated much of his narrative in order to magnify the success of the Turks." p.10'.
  • This becomes an issue when these belligerents are included in the infobox solely due to misinformation:" Based on Ottoman sources, attributes to the Albanian leaders Balsha , Jonima and Muzaka an organized Albanian contingent as numerous as one-forth of the entire Balkan coalition"[5]. Please retain from using sources which might be based on these disputable Ottoman sources. --Azor(talk) 21:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The RfC uses a question which doesn't have a functional meaning. The question should be Should Jonima/Muzaka be excluded from the infobox?' because they are already part of the infobox and the RfC was filed in order to change the current status of the article. Discussion can't start if the RfC question is malformed.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "Should" appropriately indicates a question of necessity or appropriateness; it does not deny something's existence. This wording is similar to the previous RfC because its inclusion is also the result of edit warring among editors. Therefore, the question asks if it should continue to be included. --Azor (talk). 20:29, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References (Rfc 2)

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References

  1. ^ a b Fine (jr.), John V. A.; Fine, John Van Antwerp (1994). The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century to the Ottoman Conquest. University of Michigan Press. ISBN 978-0-472-08260-5.
  2. ^ Emmert, Thomas (1991). "The Battle of Kosovo: Early Reports of Victory and Defeat" (PDF). University of Minnesota Press. p. 3.
  3. ^ Cirkovic, Sima M. (2008-04-15). The Serbs. John Wiley & Sons. p. 83. ISBN 978-1-4051-4291-5.
  4. ^ a b Noel Malcolm. Kosovo A Short History.
  5. ^ Lellio, Anna di (2009-07-15). The Battle of Kosovo 1389: An Albanian Epic. I.B. Tauris. ISBN 978-1-84885-094-1.

Draw in military terms..

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Battle is considered draw in military terms but it drained Serbia, more than Ottomans, politically for long time. -LjupceLubek 37.223.156.232 (talk) 17:27, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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