This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland articles
This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBT studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBT studiesLGBT articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of veganism and vegetarianism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Veganism and VegetarianismWikipedia:WikiProject Veganism and VegetarianismTemplate:WikiProject Veganism and VegetarianismVeganism and Vegetarianism articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History articles
What pronouns did Nightingale actually use for Barry? Having both "She" and "He" be used in parenthesis makes it seem like the author simply swapped every use of one for the other, which is a strange choice. It probably would be preferable to simply quote her directly, perhaps with a (sic) after the first use of "he". 194.147.250.101 (talk) 10:25, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I added a source to the gender and personal life section of James Barry's wiki page stating that many consider James to be a Trans man/transmasculine figure nowadays but it was taken down not long after. I'd be open to discussing it if necessary. Thatstoic (talk) 16:39, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First, I note that there have been multiple discussions concerning Barry's gender identity. Editors engaging in this discussion should at least peruse what has already been written, which includes:
... self-published material such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs (as distinguished from newsblogs, above), content farms, Internet forum postings, and social media postings are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.[1] Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent, reliable sources.
I could not find the author of the blog, Mily Mumford, in Wikidata. I could only find scant mention in "Mily+Mumford" Google Scholar. I do not think that Mumford can be considered an established subject-matter expert.
That said, I think that the article deserves a neutral, balanced, and duly weighted discussion of Barry's gender identity. It is clear that regardless of gender identity, British military & medical societies only permitted men to hold positions among their ranks. Barry certainly could not have been a British Army surgeon should Barry's gender status at birth had been known.
I think that there is an indication in the article that there were those in the army & in medicine who did know Barry's about this. The supposition that Barry desired to hide physical gender at death to protect those who knew & protected Barry is at least as plausible that Barry identified totally as a man.
I'm not claiming that James was transgender, I'm merely including the fact that many people, whether they be historians or not, see him that way. The reason I included that article was because it included one such historian that believes that James was trans. I merely used that article because I was too lazy and thought that that would be enough to fix my previous error, but I suppose I should include articles made by the actual historian to hopefully put this issue to bed? Thatstoic (talk) 18:48, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I have outlined the way forward. For a balanced, and duly weighted discussion, we need to provide both
the viewpoint that Barry was transgender
the viewpoint that Barry passed as a man so as to be a British Army surgeon, & subsequently may have wanted to be buried without physical examination so as to protect those who knew about Barry's gender but were silent.
The lack of any mention of the word "transgender" in the article body seems a little odd to me. I updated this section title to "Gender identity discussion" to more accurately reflect the topic under discussion. – notwally (talk) 22:34, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's super weird to me that there's no mention of "transgender" in the article too. I'll see if I can track down any helpful sources in a few days here. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 22:40, 19 July 2024 (UTC) Also, nice to see you again, Notwally![reply]
I believe I can be of service, I included that article because it listed one historian that believes that James was trans, but I can list some others if you'd like. Thatstoic (talk) 23:09, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
.svg)
